Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Table Service podcast where we'll dish on all things support, success and beyond with the people and companies building the future of customer experience. Table Service is presented by Tavolo Consulting and I'm your host, Jordan Hooker. Connor Pendergrast is a customer support and success specialist with over 15 years of experience. He founded a company to bring an innovative social care tech product to market in the UK and worked as a senior leader at fintech startup expensify for nearly 10 years. Connor is now a coach and consultant for B2B customer support leaders and shares his customer support knowledge through his daily newsletter. Connor lives in the UK with his wife and two kids. He describes himself as an extremely mediocre triathlete and he enjoys the occasional space opera book series. Connor, welcome to the table.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Hey Jordan, it's very nice to be here. Thank you very much.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. So glad to have you here. For our listeners who may not be familiar with you or for those who are, we'd love to hear a little more about you. Let's, let's hear the story.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah, so you, you hit the high points. So I'm, I'm in the UK. I work primarily with customer support leaders in the B2B business as a service space and I help them to create more resilient, more impactful careers and support experiences through coaching and consulting as well as any, any paid offerings or free products, including, as you mentioned, my daily. Or it's actually technically week daily, but week daily just doesn't sound, doesn't have the same ring to it as daily.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Yes, makes sense.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's, that's my email list, so I write that every day. And yeah, that's, that's what I do. It's fun, it's interesting. I get to talk to a bunch of different people around the world and I'm really enjoying it so far.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: And obviously we'll talk about some resources at the end, but we'll make sure to put the link to sign up for that newsletter down in the show. Notes for our listeners. Before we hop into the conversation, let's talk a little bit about your, your mediocre triathlete care career. I'd love to hear a little bit about your experience there.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. So full disclosure, as of recording, I haven't actually done a triathlon in two years because instead I just had a second child, obviously out of triathlon. For those who don't know, triathlon is swimming, cycling and running in a single event first. In almost all cases, you do them in that order. And the default perspective for triathletes is that swimming is awful and should be avoided at all costs. And I've just taken that to the extreme of pretending to be a triathlete and not swimming. And my excuse is that it takes 10 minutes to get to the swimming pool. And that is just 10 minutes that I cannot, cannot do. And not to brag, but I actually did represent New Zealand at the age group world championships in Ibiza in sprint distance to Athlon in. That was in 2023 and I didn't come last, which is an important achievement for me. And then I also represented just myself at a, at a similar event in the end of. When was it the end? Towards the end of 2024. And I actually came second in that race. So I was very pleased with myself. I consider, I still consider myself a very mediocre triathlete. But I've been informed by Sarah Caminiti that I am her, that I am the best triathlete that she knows.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Well, I would trust Sarah on that. I actually know one other triathlete, so I'll have to compare Yalls stats after, after we have this conversation. Well, let's, let's move into our conversation. So today we're going to talk primarily around this topic of navigating the AI revolution and how to lead CS teams through transformation. So let's move into that. Let's talk first just about what it looks like to adapt to these new realities that we are facing as customer experience leaders and practitioners.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is something. This might surprise people, but that, but our artificial intelligence, or what we're calling artificial intelligence, I guess, is here. And the first thing to acknowledge is it's not just chatbots. There's a whole lot that you can go outside of just using implementing chatbots to interact with customer conversations. There's a lot more that you can do. And so really the opportunity for customer support leaders, for customer success leaders is considering across the whole range everything that you do at work, viewing it through the lens of how can I use humans and artificial intelligence together, not for one to replace the other at all, because that will not work. And you will end up in terrible situations where you show no hubris, maybe depending on what company you are and how can you view it through that lens and then find the opportunities where you can use artificial intelligence just like any other technology to bolster your team and to support them in providing great customer experiences for your team. So that's the brief summary of like, hey, what should you actually be doing here? What are the opportunities here? It is not what you might call a point solution. It's not just saying like I will use one thing to solve one problem. You've got to be looking at every way that your customer interacts with your, you, your teams, your products, your services and vice versa, how they interact with your customers and thinking, what is it that we can do to make this 10 times friendlier, 10 times easier, 10 times cheaper in a lot of cases as well, 10 times more approachable for your customers. Because the long term benefit really is increased revenue, better, more reliable revenue and increased profitability, which is as leaders within the customer space. I think that is what we should be considering most of the time as well. It's like what's the long term business level impact? So that's the like broad swing of what you should be looking through and what I think you should be looking through as a leader here.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Let's say you have a support leader or a success leader who is very much opposed to this piece. Full transparency is this started to become the thing. I was incredibly hesitant to bring any of this technology into our workspace for a few reasons. One, the concern about is this going to reach some level where we're just going to replace people? And practically and on principle, I don't know that that's necessarily a good idea.
I've grown and developed to understand a lot more of these technologies and the opportunities we have to use them. But what would your advice be to someone who is hesitant to engage with these new technologies that are coming every day, newer and newer?
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I have to be honest, Jordan, I was in the exact same situation a year ago. I was also looking at the landscape and thinking this is just a bunch of tech bros with no actual customer knowledge coming in and trying to say customer support is easy and we can replace it with a chatbot. And I think there's been, I genuinely do think there's been a. Not a reckoning, but I think there's been a, a tempering of those expectations. There's been realism applied to those and we've seen some much more sophisticated, some much more intelligent even so that's perhaps intelligent AI is maybe a double, double use of the word intelligence there, but think I'd say a lot more realism around what can be done and what cannot be done as of right now. So if you are deeply, still deeply skeptical about this good news, you're probably in the best position to actually take the steps to implement a form of artificial intelligence within here because you're not going to be looking at through this through rose tinted lenses like you're going to be looking at the actual reality. One support leader that I was speaking to, for example, who said, spoke to their customer support platform, and I won't name either, but their, their perspective was, okay, we can probably only resolve around 10% of these, these customer support interactions. And they were saying, well, that's really on the low side. What we typically see is much closer to, let's say 60%, 70%. That would be a more average rate that we would see. 10% is just kind of nothing. And my take on that is like you have a way of decreasing the number of interactions that agents have with customers satisfactorily by 10%. You should absolutely pursue that. You are coming in with a critical eye. You're coming in with a realistic expectation, which is the 10%. And now good news. If it is actually the 10% and there's no more, then you have a 10% decrease. 10% is often the difference between thriving and just getting through the day. From a customer support team's perspective. It can also be the difference between a support interaction or support queue that grows every single day or one that is on a level. I think if you are at all skeptical about this, great. Be skeptical, continue to be skeptical. There's still a lot of sugar water being sold. There's still a lot of magic, magic mirrors and wizards of Oz out there. But largely, broadly speaking, there are a lot of companies that are bringing well informed, well researched and well grounded expectations to the frontier.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Listeners have heard me say this a dozen times. As a support leader. I can't tell you how many companies I hear from week over week that are selling me the next AI solution that's going to solve my problems. And I found a few diamonds in the rough there, without a doubt. Unfortunately, I suspect a few really good companies building really good things have also been missed because just the volume of the things that come through. So I definitely think thinking about this with a, with a keen eye is critical for us as support leaders.
Well, let's talk a little bit about. Okay, we've overcome that challenge. We're a support leader who's like, all right, I am willing to engage this space. What does it look like to begin to prepare ourselves, our teams, our companies, our customers to engage with this technology?
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I think this is one element that we maybe imply as leaders, but we don't address directly enough. So we are in customer support teams, individual professionals, the people who are not leading these teams and the leaders themselves are probably feeling a lot of, lot of nervousness around, around the economy, around right now about job security, about how long it will take for, for their jobs to get replaced by AI. And so if you as the leader are coming in gung ho and saying like cool, we're going in with AI, the first feeling that people will probably get is okay, when am I getting fired? So you're going to need to spend a lot of time managing that change with your teams and approaching it from that perspective first. So don't think to yourself like, okay, we're going to go in and just like get rid of 80% of the work and then we'll figure out things to do for the teams first. Start by working out what your colleagues are going to do, what your teams are going to do after you make these changes, like what are the alternatives that they can bring to the table. And I see that there are a lot of things that customer support teams and customer support agents can do that can really easily improve on the customer support offering or customer success offering or the overall customer experience. Those things can be. This is going to sound obvious, but you're going to need to maintain and improve the artificial intelligence, whatever kind of AI you're using there. So, so take for example one that I know relatively well and I think you do, you might have experience with as well as Intercom's Fin AI chat agent. So that can't just be turned on really. Like you need to put the work in and invest the work in to create documentation around it, like have your documentation framed correctly and be accurate and up to date. So good news, there's a whole role there in adapting document to be read well by AI and also continuing to keep it up to date. It's not just a create it once unless you have a product that's never going to change. Maybe you do, but then you probably have other problems, but your product is going to change. That will need to be maintained. And if you're not updating that and maintaining that documentation, your AI interactions will be very poor and go down over time. You want those to go up over time and so feeding the correct information in is what's going to going to help there. Great. That's a responsibility that your support team can do and that's something that you can have them specialize in. The other things that they can work through are things like proactive customer support, identifying common sticking points for your customers, maybe when they're onboarding, if that's not owned by a different team or even if they're two years into using your products, maybe they need a bit of a refresh on how to use particular parts of the product. You can do those in one to one engagements and try and find people to work with there or you can do those in a more one to many environment, for example through webinars about particular features. The other things that they could do is something like voice of customer reporting. Congratulations. You are responsible. If you're a support leader, you're responsible for the team in most cases that talks to most of your customers. You're also responsible probably for almost all of the revenue that you're getting in from your company. And it's something that we don't seem to acknowledge. It's like if you're, if you're running support and success for a company, assuming it's something like a business to business SaaS company, then almost all of the revenue that your company is getting is coming from people you're responsible for your customers. And so now you have the opportunity to be the voice of your customer. And so your team can take that on as a responsibility as well and do either the ad hoc reporting for example, that would be if there's a new feature, updates, you can report back to the, to the teams about how that's being received and any advice that you'd have on adapting that or just regular cadence reporting once, once a week, once a month, sort of voice of customer reporting. And then that's a product liaison kind of role as well as a starting point before you make any changes, before you adapt to a fancy tool or implement something new. Map out those sort of career pathways and those growth pathways with your team. Find out who is excited about which and that will get them confident that you're not just doing this just to fire 20% of them or 80% of them. So starting point, start from there.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: I think you're absolutely right that as leaders I know for me with my team right now we're in the process of implementing Intercom and beginning to utilize that. What does it look like for Fin to be a really valuable piece of our experience? When I first presented that, I did a very poor job in talking about the reasons we were making those choices. And I had at least one team member who was very concerned about the change that was happening and why that was happening. And so then we had to go back and spend another bit of time resolving that matter. Whereas as a leader had I taken that opportunity to really think through how we presented it and what we brought to the table, it would have just been an excitement because, hey, this is a great opportunity to implement, improve the experience for our customers. So I agree with you that that is a key thing. As leaders, we need to be focused on and how we deliver this message and the things we focus on.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Exactly. And fostering an openness about people's fears is really important. Like, this is when. This is when true, man, true, effective managers and leaders really shine in that they are. They have created that confidence, they've created that openness and that welcoming of people's fears and people's hopes and people's ambitions and people's dreams. They are able to fully communicate with those, with. With the entire team and understand, well, what is it that people are scared of? I think it's obvious what people are scared of. In a lot of cases, it's that, you know, as of recording, it's a terrible job market, and it's a terrible job market. In particular, if you're a customer professional. There's not a lot of really great jobs going out there. And so now's not the time for your team to be looking around and thinking like, oh, it's better for me to jump before I'm pushed, because it is easier to find a job before you lose your job. And so the great people will get snapped up and then you'll be left regretting starting down this pathway without fully mapping out some good journeys for your team.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Let's think about in terms now of we've navigated the challenge that I have as a support leader. I have accepted the fact that this technology is here. I've accepted the fact that this technology is actually going to benefit my team and my customers and my company if done right. I've navigated these challenges with my team and helping them understand what we're doing and why we're doing it and the experience they're going to have and the opportunities that are going to grow from this with them. What does it look like then, to begin that actual process of taking this technology and putting it into our workflow?
[00:16:24] Speaker B: This. So this part is where it gets quite, quite nuanced based on who you're talking to and based on what kind of work they do. So it could be that even something as simple as having your help desk set up so that it automatically routes conversations or automatically categorizes conversations based on understanding the customer, the type of customer, and the. The message itself, like, I think we're long past the point of which you have to have someone specifically select a little bubble and, and type in or filter from a dropdown. I don't know about you, Jordan, but when I get those dropdowns which have like 12 choices, I'm just like, I don't. I can.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: I never find one that actually fits what I actually want to talk about. So it is always other. But if you were just reading what I'm saying and then interpreting it based on that, then great, that's rooting off to the right team or the right person. So it could be something as simple as that. It could be a more nuanced, a more more complicated AI conversational agent that's interacting with customers, or that's triaging that information earlier and getting it and then summarizing it and passing it to the human agent. So you're not intending to have the whole conversation resolved by your AI conversation agent, but it's there to gather the information and, and get that quickly to your human support agents. Or it could be something that we were talking about earlier, which is the voice of customer reporting. So voc reporting used to be this like huge time sink. And you would actually only look at a sample of the data. So you would only look at 10% of conversations for a week, because who has the time to go through and look at 100 conversations for a week? And then you would actually do it once a quarter rather than what you wanted to do, which is once a month. But now there's a lot of tools that you can use to plug into your existing help desk and can pull out those and summarize those. Those topics. And that's something that's. That I think is a really exciting opportunity here as well for AI, which is that it's going beyond just what we do today. And it's saying, okay, if it was entirely free for us to do it how we wanted it to do, how would we actually do it? Like, if you were thinking about it through fresh eyes, what is the actual solution that you would bring? And something like voice of customer reporting is something you don't want to do once a quarter, because what I said in January and what I say in March could be totally different. Why is it useful just to look on that kind of timescale? Looking on a weekly basis can help you gather and respond to themes a lot quicker. And it's just untenable to do when you don't have an automated tool in the background for that. So those are a couple of activities to get people's brains thinking. You could think about it from an activities perspective. So how are your team, how's your team spending the majority of their time and how can you shrink that to allow for the more high value interactions that we were talking about earlier that we laid out as potential pathways. So that's one way of thinking about it. Or like I said, if we were starting afresh, what would we actually like to do? If it was, if we were able to do a thousand times as many of it, what are those kind of activities that you're missing at the moment?
[00:19:30] Speaker A: So now let's say we've, we've navigated this road where we're on the path to tools being implemented, experiences happening with this automation, whatever it may be, as simple as ensuring that tickets are automatically assigned based on skills or based on customer or whatever it may be all the way up to Maybe we're automating 10 to 15% of our customer interactions in a delightful way. We're doing this in a way that our customers interact with that experience and go, that was great. I felt like I still engaged with this company fully brand, voice matched, quality of voice matched, all of those pieces, let's say those things are going well. Let's think about what the, what the strategy looks like from that point. Now we have to start thinking about what are we going to do for the next quarter, what are we going to do for the next year, what's two years from now look like? How do we balance this tech with strategies to ensure we are not going to end up a year from now regretting the decisions that we've made today in terms of bringing this technology into our tech stack?
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I think when you're thinking about that investment, consider that this is the actual technical components are probably stuff that we're not going to be spending much time on. So consider how is it that we can insofar as possible, pull out one piece of technology and plug in a fresh one, or how is it that we can keep up to date with improvements that are happening? So if you're using a particular AI model today or a particular AI vendor today, what are the choices that you can make that will help you swap those out in six months, in 12 months, in 18 months? Because a lot of these changes are happening so quickly that you don't want to be out of date in that short period of time. Like you want to be making good, sensible technical decisions that last three years. I don't think we really need to be thinking like 10 years down the road at this point for when you're implementing these sort of technologies because I couldn't tell you what the future is going to look like that far down the road. But when you are implementing today, consider how is it that we can swap it out as quickly and as easily as possible in six months? How can we do it with absolutely no cost and just upgrade to the latest model based on whatever vendor we're using here? What are the simple steps that we can take today that will pay off in the future? We've all found ourselves stuck in those sort of situations where we've got that technical debt or those systems debt where we've spent 18 months implementing a new technology and it's great and it's fancy and it's fantastic, but then very quickly it's out of date. So what are the ways that you can work with whoever is implementing it to make sure that you're not locking yourself into something in the long term and then always be thinking not about the technology itself and more about like the customer experience that you're creating?
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: So I will say, and these are just tools for bringing great customer support experiences and delightful customer support experiences and really interesting and enriching customer experiences themselves.
Take that lens, not the technology lens. It is not about shoehorning AI into everything. It is about what is the best way to consider the customer support experience as a way of increasing revenue, increasing profitability, and meeting the overall business goals of the company. So that's the broad like how, how you should be framing this in that long term. That's my take on it.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: I, I think that it's interesting you and I have talked about this topic a little bit because as my team is working through right now and bringing in intercom and finish. Your newsletter has been very helpful to me in thinking through this. So I've thought through some of these strategies. Yeah, I guess this last question then in this topic is how, how do I go sell this to leadership inside of my company? Because I, I know for me that that came rather quickly. Thankfully I've got a leadership team that is very interested and very invested first and foremost in the employee experience, then in the customer experience, and then asking how we can bring in tools and technologies to do those things. Well, that's not the case for I would assume the majority of people. And then thinking about my sample size of companies I've worked for, this is a rarity in terms of my experience. How do you think we should go and have those conversations with executive teams, particularly if there is a monetary investment that needs to happen at the front end for us to do these things.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Things, I think it's mostly pretty boring, but it's about saying okay, what is the return that you'll actually get on the investment? And, and you and I care deeply about customer support experiences. Your listeners, everyone who's watching, they'll care deeply about customer experiences and the individual customer journeys that our people are going through. And reality of the situation is though that we are, we do exist as part of an organization, as part of a business. And there is an overall business strategy. So that might be revenue, that might be profitability, it could even be something like evaluation that people are looking to get to get to an exit. But frame it through the short, medium or long term business strategy. How is what you are wanting to do, how is this project going to support that in the long term? And if it isn't, should you be doing it like genuinely should you be doing something? Because there's, there are often great reasons to go against the grain and to go against the overall company strategy. Sometimes you just kind of have to go in a different direction, often in the very short term. But overall looking towards that long term business strategy is really critical. So for example, let's get into some examples. Maybe the overall strategy is to improve profitability. Well, one way to do that is to not tie the support organization's headcount to the overall revenue of the company. And typically that's, that's pretty locked in in most cases unless you are doing something to make help your colleagues be a lot more efficient. And one way of doing that is to empower them with artificial intelligence or any other tooling. And so that is one way of saying it's very unlikely that I'll need to increase my headcount dramatically if we 5x our revenue and 5x our customer base. If I'm able to invest now in tools that may seem a little bit sophisticated for us, but I think will really have an outsized benefit effort. And so it is an investment today that will pay off dividends in 1, 2, 3, 5 years as we grow our customer base and as we grow our revenue size as well. So thinking about it through that lens and understanding what the host dreams and ambitions are for the other leaders within your company as well, what is it that you're that they're trying to get done? How can you help them do that? So yeah, those would be the broad idea.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing that. I think that that element there particularly mentioned is key at the end knowing how to tell the story that each stakeholder needs to hear the right data, the right experience, the right outcomes. I think is a really critical piece for us as sport leaders.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Like just another example, let's say you're talking to. Because I think most of the time when we're talking from a sports perspective, we'll think, oh, let's talk about the product examples, but let's talk about marketing examples. If you are, let's say you're talking to a chief marketing officer or VP of marketing or something like that. And they were saying like, yeah, we're just, you know, it's great when we have testimonials, but it feels like we have to spend a lot of time getting them and then they feel a little bit artificial at times. Well, you could probably set up a process really easily that captures testimonial data from customers. We all were very lucky in that a lot of the time we're hearing great things from our customers about our product and about our services. So if you are, if you're running from a success for a company and you're having regular conversations with customers, well, record them using your favorite, using your favorite call recording tool. Find my LinkedIn and then get my referral link for my particular one.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: And then great. You can immediately pipe those into a specific marketing channel in Slack, for example. So then instead of like every four months I remember this, I remember being like who we use for case studies this time. Every time it's just like, I don't know, I don't keep this on hand. And nowadays if I was doing that, I would just be piping those into, into a marketing team channel and then they can pull them out or they can just switch those from there into buffer and then you've got them queued up to share and you've just got these really smooth pipeline of sending things that other departments that other organized parts of your organization can use in a really efficient way without it having to be that like panicked, reactive state.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: That would be another example of where you could find something that people want and in your team find the other stakeholders and then deliver it to them on a silver platter without them even having to ask for it.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: For sure. I love that example because as I think about teams that support is most likely to be siloed from. Even in a company that is operating smoothly, marketing is probably one of the highest level ones that we would be isolated from. And so thinking about what does it look like to develop that closed loop feedback cycle with marketing of here's what we're seeing and experiencing Marketing gets smarter. They help us understand what they're hearing and we help them do the same and they help sales do the same. And then ultimately I feel like that gets to a place where leaders start to see how valuable support is, whereas I think in previous decades that has not necessarily been the case. We've all heard the trope sport being a call center. And that's all it is. It is so much more. And I think we're finally getting to a place where we're, where we're beginning to see people get that. And I think these are key elements of that.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Well, as we wrap up this conversation, Connor, I'd love to hear any closing thoughts you have to share with our listeners. Topics we've talked about you want to dig into more, something we've missed that you want to share? I would love to give you the floor to talk about that for a few more minutes.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Sure. This was a really great conversation. I really appreciate it, Jordan. It was, it was really good fun. This is sort of one of my pet topics at the moment, obviously enough, like everyone's thinking about AI, but, but there's, I think there's a lot of opportunity to think about how to embed AI into a whole support and success organization rather than just as, like I said, as point solutions. So one of the things I've been working on a little bit is for anyone who is thinking about how they can bring AI into their support organization in 2025, I have a new AI and customer support road mapping product. And so I come in and I'm looking to test it out with three companies at the moment. So basically I'm giving it away to three companies in exchange for critical feedback. Road testing, like roughly road testing it and then possibly testimonials if you really love it as well. So that's around 5,000 or so pounds of value that I'm giving away there. And you can fill in the Apia your application form at CustomerSuccess CX AI roadmap, which is such a mouthful now that I say it out loud, but it's customersuccess CX and then you can find it through there as well. So yeah, I'm giving that away to three companies. I haven't mentioned it anywhere else yet. But if you do sign up there, say that you've heard it through table service and then I'll look for three interesting cases. I'm looking to test out a diverse set of companies.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: That'll be that. And otherwise, yeah, we mentioned my email series there as well.
Well, my daily email so if you want my week daily email, you can go to customersuccess CX Daily or weekdaily actually, but daily works as well.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: We'll certainly make sure to link to those pieces in the Show Notes below so our listeners can catch you easily on LinkedIn and through these different places. Is there anywhere else that would be good for folks if they're interested in connecting with you to find you?
[00:31:31] Speaker B: You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Just search for Connor Pendergrass, but good luck spelling the surname.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: Well Connor, thanks so much for joining us here at the Table today. I think this conversation has been really valuable and really important and really fun and so I really appreciate your time and your insight and I know our listeners will certainly appreciate the same.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. Have a wonderful day.
Thanks for listening to the Table Service podcast. You can learn more about today's guest in the Show Notes below. Table Service is presented by Tavalo Consulting, hosted by Jordan Hooker, music by Epidemic Sound.
