Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Table Service podcast where we'll dish on all things support, success and beyond with the people and companies building the future of customer experience. Table Service is presented by Tavolo Consulting and I'm your host, Jordan Hooker. Karen Chow is a customer centric product leader with over 20 years of delivering meaningful experiences that drive growth and profitability. Karen has led companies of all stages, from early traction to scaling and thrives on solving customer problems through technology and innovation. She is also an active LinkedIn creator, sharing her perspectives on product leadership, innovation and company culture. Karen, welcome to the table.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Thanks so much, Jordan. I'm really excited to be here.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: For our listeners who are not familiar, Karen and I have had the opportunity to work together before back at Booster Fuels a few years ago. If you listen to episode one of this season with Jason and Ella, you actually heard about some of the products that Karen designed while we were there. So if you haven't listened to that episode, I'd highly recommend heading over there once we wrap up this conversation. So Karen, for our listeners who may not be familiar with you, we'd love to take a few minutes just to hear a little bit about you. Let's hear the story.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been doing product pretty much my whole career. I had a short stint in supply chain, decided that wasn't quite what I was looking forward to and in the rest of my life and so transitioned as a product and have been doing that ever since. So like you mentioned, over 20 years of experience just building scaling products that really sit at an intersection of technology, operations and user experience. And I led zero to one innovation to scale, always with a very deep focus on the customer impact and the business results. I've also proven myself in terms of delivering profitable growth by launching products that not only improve the customer experience but also improve the bottom line and margins. And I would say what really sets me apart is my ability to bring creativity around time and resource constraints.
I'm usually able to build and do a lot with small teams and tight timelines and I'm currently Chief Product Officer at flowspace. If you're not familiar with the company, it is in the supply chain space. So it kind of went full circle but from a product lens. And we're AI driven fulfillment platform for multi channel brands and I've been really thriving there in terms of solving really hard problems. That situation, you know, between operations and you know, figuring out how to use technology to improve efficiencies and really around that blended offline and online experience because we're, you know, Unlike a traditional SaaS company, you're thinking about just the software, but we have to think about from our product sense, the software and how it interacts with that physical aspect, that physical layer of service, and blend that together for a seamless experience, end to end.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Now, I know on this podcast we've talked a lot about AI in terms of customer support, customer service, customer success. So I'm really excited to dig into this conversation from a different perspective. Obviously, we'll talk about a few other things, but let's just jump right in. You mentioned at Flowspace that AI is a critical aspect of your product. So talk a little bit about your experience now over the last few years of using AI as a product leader. What does it look like to incorporate that into the work that you're doing and the products you're delivering?
[00:03:21] Speaker B: I think in a few different ways of how we incorporate AI. I think it's based on three different pillars, really. It's like how to make you a better employee. There's a lot of internal usage and this can be general purpose models like using ChatGPT for writing better emails, brainstorming. But also then there's the vertical AI solutions that might be targeted for a certain type kind of workflow that you might be thinking about. How can I buy a service that can help us be better internally? And so I help evaluate those services as well.
And then there's developing AI products, which is, as a product person, extremely exciting. And we launched our first AI product well over a year ago now. And we have customers that are using it day to day to drive their efficiencies and like, answer questions and actually take action and drive workflows. And so that's all very, very exciting. As a product person, like, you get excited when you're solving real problems and people are using it. So we have our flow space AI that does that. And so that's very exciting. And we're going to continue to add on to that functionality because as we deploy that, we're able to see what kind of questions our customers actually are trying to answer and what they're trying to do. And that just kind of fuels that kind of flywheel of like, okay, these are things we know we need to kind of invest in and we're starting to work on.
So I mentioned a little bit about making ourselves better and I kind of talked about general purpose models. But the other thing that's kind of interesting is that we're starting to deploy AI agents in our internal workflows as well as in production for end customers because we really believe that there's a way for some of the kind of like more routine asks or routine questions that we can raise that to our team on getting more proactive and, you know, knowing about when there are things that we need to get involved in as well as we're helping, you know, make it easier for both the brands that we serve as well as the fulfillment floor staff to know when they need to urgently look at something or when something can maybe wait. So we're using AI in many ways. It's a. It's actually a really exciting time to be a product leader.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, I know from my perspective as a more actively as a user of these products that are being built by teams, we've begun to incorporate AI into our workflow and seeing how that is beginning to impact, if nothing else, speed and reliability and the ability to take some of the tasks that my team would typically have to do and solve them for customers in really great ways. I'm not interested in deploying something that's going to be a crummy experience. It should be a great experience, but it's made a world of difference in terms of what we're. We're able to do with that. So it's been. Been really exciting. Tell me a little bit about from your perspective as a Chief Product officer. How has AI helped change the way that you do the work that you do?
[00:06:19] Speaker B: I go to networking events where I'm talking to other product leaders, and it's kind of interesting to see how other people are using it as well. And so, you know, obviously drafting communications, sometimes kind of like just brainstorming with it.
I don't think it's a good idea to just take it, you know, exactly what it puts out. So it kind of is like iteration around it, but you might take elements of it that might help you like, you know, wordsmith, a few things. I think that's great. But the other thing that I found a lot of use in it is just doing kind of general research on, like, what's going on the market as well as, like, looking at competitors, et cetera, and just seeing what's out there. And, you know, you got to take things with a grain of salt and kind of like, you know, double click a little bit. But I think that's been really helpful. Something that I've struggled a little bit with, I think AI is just not quite there yet, and I think this is where maybe there needs to be more of a vertical AI solution for it is there are been times where I'll have large sets of data, text data that I'm trying to sort through to understand, like trends, et cetera. And it's been sort of mixed on that. And I think there's a little bit more investment that can be made in terms of like, you know, tuning the prompt that you write. But that's where, like, there's like a careful balance of like, how much you do go that route versus kind of like traditionally go through all that data. But I know there's vertical solutions out there that exist. It's just not something that we've looked at just yet. And the other thing I'm really excited about is the prototyping capabilities. I know a lot of product people and engineers are starting to look at creating early prototypes. We just had a lunch and learn yesterday where we're going through the tools like replit and cursor. And so I think there's a lot of tinkering that could be done. So I'm very excited about that as well.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. And from your perspective, just in terms of all of us, not even just in your particular role, how do you think this is going to change the future of work in general, being able to incorporate these tools into the work that we're doing day in and day out?
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, just with the way the economy is going and the current market landscape in terms of profitability and efficiency, all employees are being asked to do more. I think everyone sitting in a seat, you know, is being asked to do more. And so I think AI is a great way to help us do more.
Even today, I feel like it's helping us to be more efficient. I've definitely found ways to leverage it to make my workflows faster. So I just think that's going to continue on and on. And I think the most valuable employees, the ones who are going to, you know, be successful in this new world, is really around being good at using AI. They're going to figure out how to be more effective and get their objectives met.
Leveraging AI, whether that's prepping the data, creating prompts that carefully get the outputs they need from AI, or evaluating those outputs and really deciding are those outputs good and what to do next. And I do think there's going to be some role. And I know there's a bunch of people that talk about this, but we talked about it here internally as well.
We have a few AI agents of in our system. And so at some point someone needs to manage these AI agents. And right now it's someone on the product team and that's fine. But I know there's, there's probably innovation there in terms of, you know, companies leveraging some sort of infrastructure or services.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Sure, absolutely. And I think, interestingly, as we've, we've had other guests on this season, episodes that have already come out and episodes that are set to come out later this season, we've had conversations around new roles that are opening up, particularly around prompt managers. When AI first came into the scene, I think all of us in customer support and service, one of our first reactions was, oh, gosh, please, no, this is not a, this is not a good thing. But the companies that are doing things really well, I think are beginning to understand that you can build roles for the people that are, that have been on the ground doing the work, talking to customers, engaging with that, that now are going to be able to go and help train these tools that you're using to do an even better job. For our listeners who want to dig into that more deeply, our episode with Dan Allen, which I believe was episode two of this season, dug into that a lot. And so it's a really critical piece for us, I think, is support and service and experience to stop thinking of this as doom and gloom and start looking for where's the opportunity where we can have more growth, more opportunity, more roles that can open up for our teams. And so I think you just hit the nail on the head that there's so much opportunity there for, for all sorts of interesting things that people are going to be able to do in ways that they're going to be able to grow.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the thing I would say is over time, and you don't have to be necessarily an engineer or very technical to use AI. Right.
I think anyone that is very customer centric and has a good sense of how AI works can be a good prompt engineer. We had this internal debate here of who should create the prompts and who should manage the prompts.
Maybe in some companies it's the engineers, but at Flowspace, it's the product people.
And that's because we know the customers the best. We are more attuned to AI in terms of practical applications.
Not that the engineers couldn't do it. It's just more of like, there's also like a level of being really, really close to customer that a product person needs to be. So I could definitely see other roles that are very, very close and customer centric being very valuable in terms of creating prompts.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Thinking in that same vein, how do you think for service industry, these tools are going to bring change and development in this space?
[00:12:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's really going to depend on the type of industry. For example, Flowspace, we're E Commerce, Fulfillment, we're in logistics. There's a very real operational component and there are going to be exceptions that happen. Right. There's going to be the routine things that you can automate with AI and you know, don't necessarily need a human involved. But then there's like things that happen that are like out of the blue because it's supply chain that someone needs to go and, you know, just figure it out or do some sort of investigation.
If there isn't like a, like a help desk article of some sort that you can write about it, it's going to be messy. AI is not there yet. Can it get there? Maybe, but not what I see in the immediate future. And so we have scenarios where it's like the packaging wasn't great and then the product spills on the boxes. And so there's things like that where now you have to do a visual evaluation of what happened with the inventory. And could you use computer vision and all sorts of stuff to do that in the future? Yeah, but that's. There's also a reality check on costs as well as equipment, et cetera. And so realistically, that's a person that's helping do that.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: And so. So I think there's a balance, really.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Sure, absolutely.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: The way I think about it is like, if there's like a black and white answer, yes, you can automate, but there's like shade the gray or some decision to be made that's a little bit more complexity, then that's where it's not quite in the sweet spot.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: And I think, I think one of the things that I've really loved in conversations recently is thinking about the fact that these tools are developing and they're great and voice AI is come a long way, even here in the last last year. And it's really impressive and really exciting. But at the end of the day, when emotions are running high and money's on the line in a really serious way, people want to talk to a human being. So we've kind of walked through talking about AI and all these pieces. So I'd love to take a few minutes to think about the experience that you and I have actually had working together in terms of how do you, as a partner or a product leader, think about partnering with your frontline support and experience teams. I'd love to Hear a little bit of your perspective on what makes a valuable partner from both sides of that equation.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I enjoyed so much working with you, Jordan. You're such a great partner. I just want to say that. Thank you.
I think what we had was great because basically we were in lockstep. You were always so good about giving us frontline view into what's going on.
All that data that you collected, that you and your team collected through the software system as well, and just understanding what that customer experience really is.
You know, I really enjoyed going out there and being in person with you and your team at one point where I just shadowed them. And I think that's so valuable, especially as I was like learning about the product in the space and just like seeing what the problems are. So I think that was great. And I think from my role's perspective, my commitment to, you know, the customer service Org is really helping think through how we solve those problems. You guys are bringing those problems up to us and we're gonna brainstorm and talk through like, okay, here's some ideas. And then figuring out how we kind of test those things because maybe some things we're not so sure. There's some, like, really hard problems that we had to deal with at booster.
It was not immediately obvious how to solve. And then it's like, figure out a way to like, test into it. And that's where your team was so great about. Hey, we might not build it quite full, you know, scope, but let's figure out how we can test into it. And maybe there's some. A little bit of manual work that your team needed to do to start and so that we can prove it out. And so I think that's a great partnership and that's the model I think that really works.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Sure, absolutely. I'd love to hear if you just have any advice as you're thinking about, say, a new support leader stepping into a role and engaging with product for the first time. What are some quick wins that that leader could think about to gain trust with the product leadership?
[00:16:38] Speaker B: We're very data centric and it's not always just numbers. Sometimes it's qualitative data. Right. So I think the first thing I would expect from a customer service leader that comes in is to assess the tickets and understand why people come in and have questions or need and need to contact support and really showcasing that to their product person. And that just starts that conversation of we're going to work together. I'm going to help surface these insights to you. You're going to, you and I are going to help figure out how to make these better. And so I think that's a very like that. A lot of times, a lot of roles, you just, you start with the data. Okay. You start with the data, you start there and then you start collaborating and you have those like one on ones and you continue to collaborate over time.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: I think that's great advice and I think it's one of the key things because I think it can be very easy, especially for a young leader to step in. And the startup environments that we tend to work in where it's not unusual for a very junior frontline leader to be on a call with the CEO and the COO and the cpo, having conversations about these things and having to very quickly learn what it looks like to talk to executives, what it looks like to talk to people of all different levels. And so I think that's a key element of learning to speak the language of your stakeholder and making sure that you're, you're equipped to do that. And if you're not, figure out how to go do it and even ask. I think that's another thing, like most, most people are, okay, if you have that first conversation and go, what information can I bring to you that's going to be most helpful instead of just trying to figure it out all on your own. I think having those conversations is a key element of a strong culture and a strong relationship developing.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: And that part, yeah, 100% I love that. I love, yeah, that's a great call out. Like, it doesn't hurt to ask, like what, what else can I do to help give you clarity?
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Well, let's, let's dig into one more topic. One of the things that, that you mentioned and I mentioned your bio is the, the LinkedIn content that you create and you've, you spent a lot of time thinking and talking about culture. I would, I would love to hear a little bit of your thoughts just on what it looks like to develop cultures of excellence and the work that we're doing, not just with product, but across the board, but obviously your perspective from product. Love to hear your thoughts on how an organization can build that culture of excellence. In terms of the work that we're.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Doing, you have to model the behavior. That's like step one. I think there's a lot of leaders I've seen that come in with really amazing backgrounds and you know, but sometimes like you kind of got to be in it, especially at this stage of company. And so for me, I try to model the behavior that I would like to see in the organization.
Whether that's, you know, even though I have a C level title, like I'm getting in the weeds on data, like I'm doing things that are kind of manual at times. So I have to span that gamut.
And I think that's one. I think it's about making sure people have really clear expectations on what is expected from them.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: And having that feedback that's continuous and you're not waiting quarterly or yearly to give them the feedback. And just being really clear and transparent about that.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: And you know, and then it is building trust.
I would say a lot of my leadership style is around making sure that I'm sharing all the things I'm thinking about working on and I'm providing that transparency on like the conversations that they need to be aware about, but also them being able to share things with me and then that we can collaborate on. So I really think it's a partnership between myself and the broader org. I have a very open door policy. I'm always open to feedback and suggestions. And so I think it's having that growth mindset. Even me, I'm constantly trying to improve and I want everyone in the organization thinking about that. It's not just how can I improve? It's like how can I improve the business? And it's not just with products. Sometimes it's things like influence into other areas where I think they can use a little bit of help or product thinking or you know, my perspective on how we talk about certain things.
Yeah. So that's a little bit about how I think about culture showing up every day. And then also kind of like that transparency and clear expectations as well as having growth mindsets like, and having people that have that growth mindset because unfortunately there are people that are kind of just happy with where they are and that's okay. But that's not necessarily what I think it makes someone successful, especially at a company in our stage.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Well, as we wrap up this conversation, we'd love to just give you an opportunity for any closing thoughts you may have about these topics or other things that you'd love our listeners to. To hear.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've talked to people that have reported to me, for example, or you know, people that or I've mentored.
I, I would say, you know, the one thing I don't like to hear is like, is like that's not my job.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: You kind of mentioned the hustle culture around like just ownership and trying to get things done and like learning.
There is so much opportunity out there. It's, it's up to you to kind of like go after it. Hopefully you have a great manager that can help support you in those things. But if you don't, right, you are in charge of your own career. You're in charge of your own learning. You don't have the opportunity to learn about AI right now. You could learn it on it on your own. There, there's, there's so much resource online, so I would say go after it.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Sure. Awesome. Well, hey, thanks for sharing those thoughts with us and the rest of this conversation. If folks wanted to get in touch with you, hear more of your thinking on these topics, what would be the best way for them to do that?
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah, like you mentioned, I'm active on LinkedIn, so people can feel free to reach out and connect with me. Send me a dm. I'm always happy to chat.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: We'll make sure to include that information in the Show Notes as well as a link to Flowspace if folks are interested in seeing more of the work you're doing in that organization. But hey, thanks so much for joining us here at the Table.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: Thanks Jordan. So great to talk to you.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: You as well.
Thanks for listening to the Table Service podcast. You can learn more about today's guest in the Show Notes. Table Service is presented by Tavalo Consulting, hosted by Jordan Hooker, music by Epidemic Sound.
