Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Table Service podcast where we'll dish on all things support, success and beyond with the people and companies building the future of customer experience.
Table Service is presented by Tavolo Consulting, and I'm your host, Jordan Hooker. Karen Lam is the Director of Customer Support at Top hat. With over 15 years in customer service and support, Karen has worked across fintech and edtech, always with a focus on delivering an exceptional customer experience.
She's a strong advocate for the voice of the customer and serves as the group lead for the Women in Tech employee resource group at Top Hat, as well as the diversity, inclusion and belonging Chair. Karen, welcome to the table.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Thank you. Jordan. What a warm welcome. Love that so much.
Yeah, you really hit the nail on the head there. Certainly. Director of Customer Support at Top Hat. And I really love how we spark better teaching and learning experiences for a brighter world, which is ultimately what I love so much about our company mission, but also about how, you know, Vue support. It's definitely a learning experience. It's definitely a community growing experience. And that's such an important part of not only what I stand for, but also what I truly like. Yeah. What I truly believe in.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Sure. Yes, absolutely. Well, thanks so much for joining us. For our listeners who may not be familiar with you or may, but would love to hear more, we'd love to hear more about you and your work at Top Hat and then we'll hop into our conversation.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So at tophat, we work with educators and students and really to provide, you know, better teaching and learning experiences, we offer a classroom engagement software. So our support team again handles those questions. But ultimately, what I really am passionate about and what I love is our support team also runs our Voice of the Customer program for the company. And that's really been a game changing experience which we're going to talk a little bit more about today.
But also, yeah, just really passionate about the support world. I really grew into it very early on. First job was in, you know, retail working behind a checkout counter. But also they discovered I was moving like way too quickly, like customers moving really quickly through the checkout lane. So it's like, oh, Karen, you're probably better like in customer service.
So then, you know, learning from there and then building upon that, building upon those skills. And I remember my first full time job was at a small loyalty rewards company where I started answering emails and phone calls. And again, it's really learning about the customer experience. And at that point I was like, it was a light bulb moment. It's like, you know what, I kind of like this. We should probably, you know, keep going at it. So that's how it started.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Awesome. Wonderful. Well, thanks for sharing that with us. Well, let's hop into our conversation. I'm excited to talk through a number of topics today. The first one we'll talk about is just thinking about building a culture of context and empathy. So we've talked on this podcast certainly in the two seasons I've been doing this, and all the conversations I have with support leaders about how our, our part of the business is changing. Customer support has shifted in how we work, what we focus on, the tools that we're using, things that are either helpful or threatening to the work that we do. And I would love to hear a little bit of your thinking about this culture shift and how that's happening in sport, how it's affecting support. I would love to hear your thoughts there.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I mean, what I find really interesting is when I first took my first, like leadership position within support, a lot of the focus was very similar to what we're hearing about today. Automation, making things fast. It was not really necessarily the ideal of being people focused.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Funny enough, especially with the changes that are happening, dare I say the word AI, because of what's happening in the landscape right now, I am seeing that cultural shift where we're actually focused a little bit more on human first and we're really celebrating that, which I think is incredibly important because support, by and large is an empathy driven business.
Everything that we do every day requires an incredible amount of empathy from every single person that works. Not necessarily in support, but anything that's customer facing, we need that in order to build relationships, to really connect with our customers. And unless you're, or rather if you keep thinking about really just automation and efficiency, you really lose the opportunity to build that relationship.
Because ultimately efficiency, it might win the moment. If you move fast, it's great. But if you're thinking about really keeping that customer and building that trust, it's really that loyalty that ends at the end of the day that's incredibly important. And you really only do that if you're able to build that relationship, bring in that human element. And that's where context driven leadership, which is one thing I highly promote on, like what I believe in and what I work for, is in order to build empathy, you need that context and that's incredibly important. So, so today when I work with my support team and work with them on explaining something to the customer, it's not enough to Say like, hey, I fixed it. It's even more powerful to say like, this is how I fixed it and here's how you can help yourself or self serve in the future. So I think that's really the focus and the shift of where things are heading within the support landscape, building that context. Because sure, you could probably build that into your AI if you're using it to automate the experience.
And yes, at the end of the day, the customer will appreciate the speed, but they will be much more thankful in not only the quality of the response that you provide, but if they can do it themselves at the end of the day.
[00:05:34] Speaker A: Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I found that to be a really key and important thing as we think about AI as I initially was a support leader that was very bothered and concerned about bringing it into our tech stack and I still certainly have concerns about the way we go about it and the impact that can have. And companies that are taking action thinking that AI is going to solve all of their customer support problems and then we see them rehiring their entire workforce that they laid off very quickly after because they discover, oh, it doesn't actually work that way, but how important it is to think about, even as we build it, building quality into that. It's no longer just about deflection and keeping customers from talking to us. Some customers might want to talk to a person, but some customers might be perfectly happy working with an AI agent as long as the experience is quality and they get what they need. That is certainly a preference. And I love, love giving customers those options as they engage with us. But always want to do it in a quality way.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Tell me a little bit about your thinking on, you know, as we, as we consider these shifts and our organizations and the word threatened keeps coming to mind, but it feels a little bit strange to say, but especially very tier 1 frontline support roles are in a lot of ways threatened.
What's coming in technology through AI and through automation. But so now we're doing, expected to do more with less in a lot of ways. So as we think about continuing to grow and how we are a strategic part of an organization, what do you think it takes for a support team, particularly in this environment, to continue to be, or to become a really strategic and important asset and have a voice at the table?
[00:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. No, what a wonderful question, Jordan. I think it really highlights like not only the landscape that we're living in right now, but ultimately the support team. Yes. To answer the first part of the question, tier one support, I Mean, like, yes, I agree the word threatened is probably the wrong way to put it, but certainly there's going to be an evolution, there's going to be change that is really required to happen. Because ultimately if we're changing the landscape by introducing a new partner or teammate into the, into your ecosystem, clearly that is one task or one job that's being attributed to or enhanced. But what will really make the difference is looking at different ways that you can stretch and grow your support team. So one part that I really pride myself on is like, I love my team. I love every single member of my team. And one of the most difficult things, especially when I started a leadership role and support very early days was I was seeing, you know, high performers really hitting peak, but then not really knowing what is beyond, you know, that senior level, senior support agent. What is beyond that other than, you know, essentially my role? It was like, okay, if you're not a lead, then I mean, if you're a senior member, then the next step might be a team lead or a manager and then that's it. That was it.
But I think it's really important for every single individual, not just in support, to really think of growth is. And this is something, you know, human resources also talk talks about as well. But growth is really about adding more or stretching your skill set, expanding your horizons. It's not always that. Ladder movement.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: So in many ways when we think about tier one support and even like if we bring in the conversation of Tier 0 support being that self serve component. Yes, that part's going to change if we become more automated because in many ways those individual questions that are being asked are very repetitive, could potentially be answered by a knowledge base if the individual coming into the support pipeline didn't use essentially tier zero for support.
But that also means it opens up a lot more opportunities.
What those opportunities are is definitely potentially more complex work, but maybe other work that because everything was so busy, we've just put to the sidelines.
So very recently I spoke at a webinar on buying or building AI agents and AI chatbots.
One thing that really brought home the conversation was the importance of really ensuring your data was in a really good place.
And so that opens up opportunities on your support team to have potentially a dedicated role on knowledge management.
It could also mean that somebody might be helping to build or adjust those agents. Certainly as a leader you could jump in and do those tasks as well. But it's also important to have your team experiment. And I think again, bringing in the concept of Ensuring your team has context on what's going on and embracing that. And in order to get everyone comfortable about the usage of AI, you really need to involve your team in the process.
So what I've done is I've had members of my team experiment a few things with AI, and when I say building or using AI, it doesn't necessarily need to be an agent that's built. It could be something as straightforward and as very simple as using Gemini or ChatGPT to help reframe some of your responses when communicating to a customer, trying to find faster ways to do things.
In our particular support queue, occasionally there are requests to do some data analysis. It's not very often, but often it's with grades and it might be filling in a gap the product may not necessarily have.
In the past, we would get questions internally with the team. It's like, oh, wait, which, which Excel formula or which Google Sheets formula do I need to use for this?
Now we can use AI to like, you know, speed up that process.
And I think, like, ultimately, even if that question is being directed to another source, that's still a learning opportunity for somebody to get that information faster, bring it to the next level.
Um, and I think that's again, like a great way and a great way to grow the team. I also feel like I didn't really answer your question, Jordan, because there was like a second part to it. But we'll. We'll just come full circle and be it from that.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Let's think about.
And we can frame some of that, that part of the question too. In this, we think about support. We are talking to the customer constantly, every single day. Obviously, other parts of the organization are engaging with the customer, but I would. For most organizations, support is probably the one talking to the customer the most. And so it's very critical we bring that voice into the conversation. So I'd be curious your thoughts on one, how we ensure that the, the voice of the customer is heard. But then even thinking about our previous question, like how we do that in a strategic way that makes sure we continue to earn a seat at the table, both for our benefit, but most importantly, for the voice of the customer's benefit to have a seat at that table.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. And definitely a voice of the customer program is incredibly important to build that strategic lever and really bring that voice to the table. Because ultimately the support team is.
We have so much data that's in our platform, whether it's, you know, the CSAT survey, the customer conversation, like sentiment Analysis could be done on that as well.
Back and forth with the tickets, any conversations there. But ultimately, as the hub, as you had mentioned, is really the hub of the majority of the conversations that happen within the ecosystem. A lot of the sentiment that we hear about the customers not only are derived like within company conversations, but it's also out in the universe as well. And when I say the universe, I mean the Internet. So any online reviews that are there, any employees, employee reviews as well, are all really part and parcel of the customer experience, which means it is part of the voice of the customer program.
So here at Top Hat Support Team, so I lead our voice of the customer program, and what I found has been really incredibly helpful, again with the theme of context building and empathy, is bringing in other departments into the conversation. So voice of the customer ultimately, and I'm sure you would agree as well, it's truly a cultural shift. So what I mean by that is it's not only one team's responsibility to ensure the customer is being successful or the customer is amply using our product and is happy with our service.
It is truly every single person at that company should be feeding into the success of and amplifying that voice of the customer. And yes, we can do it with data, and that's certainly important when you want to to link individual items to corporate strategic initiatives and map that. And I've certainly done that with bringing all our NPS comments, taking that out and mapping it to our strategic priorities. That has certainly helped our product and engineering team get signals on what's important or what we can do to make sure it maps to something so it becomes higher up on the roadmap because it's going to achieve our strategic goals.
But it's also a matter of every single person feeds into the success of the program, which means that we need to build context.
So what I've done is every two weeks we have our Voice of the Customer session. And for some companies, that might be too often, but certainly I would say at minimum there should be some sort of meeting of members who are customer obsessed. They should at least meet monthly because anything less than that would be probably 2000 too long of a wait. But ultimately, in those conversations, we have members from various different departments who are, you know, interested in hearing about the customer, hearing about how the business is moving forward.
But we bring, you know, I've had a member from finance from our onboarding team, separate conversations, but talk about some of the projects that they're working on and how they would benefit.
Essentially the End product being the customer. And customer can also mean internal or external.
And like next week we'll have our security team actually come on and talk about a project that they're working on that will help speed up some of our internal processes, which ultimately in the end will improve the customer experience because the wait time would not be as long for certain things that are happening in the background.
So again, context building, extremely important because that is how we build empathy. And by building empathy, we can actually start seeing change happen along with those, along with those numbers, along with the individual drivers that help, you know, create the outcomes that we're looking for.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Sure. Can you tell me about a time thinking in that frame when feedback that your organization brought to, to that table helped improve a product or a service that your company was offering?
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. And I think like the best example I can provide is several months ago, again, playing with AI because it's something I love to experiment with and I love to bring to, you know, some of the successes and failures and there have been quite a few failures in the experimentation process. But ultimately I was trying to look at ways that AI could be used to predict customer sentiment. But looking at what either chatgpt, Perplexity, Gemini were able to come up with and with the concept of brand perception is entirely informed by what is out in the universe. Because if a potential prospective customer has never heard of you before or maybe might be considering your product, they're turning to the Internet. They're turning to the Internet to fulfill that decision making process.
Now, they might not necessarily use AI to make that decision making process. That could shift in the future. But ultimately I was interested to see what does AI think of the Top Hat brand. And I ran this experiment on several different LLMs to come up with, you know, different criteria. As I had the sample prompt and everything that I've written out, gathered all the details and shared that in a voice in the customer session that was actually one of our most highly attended sessions. So it was like everyone's like really interested. There were a lot of buzz about it, but what came out of it, because there were some takeaways and some items that I had looked at and analyzed that weren't actually provided or given to me through the ll. It was just like an observation. It was like, okay, well these are some things we should actually try.
So then our marketing team totally fully embraced the presentation, shared it with the entire marketing department who weren't necessarily able to attend the session. And what we've done is we made some adjustments on how we facilitate our LinkedIn or social media plan, articulating this correctly. But anyway, just some of our social planning and also how we structure some of the elements within our website.
So I think it was really impactful to see how we could use AI strategically, but also how you can share those learnings of what we do when we try to experiment on different things and share that with the entire company again, building that context and seeing where that takes you. So yeah, that was definitely a really great day for Voice of the Customer.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's awesome.
Let's shift a little bit and think about support teams in general.
How do you help your team themselves see the work that they're doing is more than just support. We've been dealing with this challenge of support is just a cost center.
This is just an entry level job. You come in and you do it as a stepping stone somewhere else. And maybe that is true for some people and I don't have any an issue with that if people want to come through support and learn and develop and grow and then we send them off somewhere else. But I'm curious how, how you help your team members not view support as that just support. Kind of negative view that is often placed on our part of the organization for sure.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I would definitely say that when I first started in a leadership role that was more how I viewed support and I would say many of the members of my team viewed it the same way. Still to this day, for to a certain extent I, I think many would agree that support's a great.
When I say stepping stone, that's the wrong word. But it's a great ground to really learn about your product because you're with it and working intimately with it every single day. So if you really want to learn about the product, certainly support is a great starting ground for that individual learning experience. But in terms of, you know, growing members and support, having them think about what support could become in terms of their career path, it's really important to have those career conversations, right. Really digging in to find out what each individual person is really like a superstar in.
And I think that's it.
It's easy to overlook, but it's also it can. You have to get a little creative. And the reason I say that is because support, by and large, again, it's more like incoming task in, task, you know, out, you know, complete the task. It is over, it is done. Maybe in some cases if they're a little bit more complex, there's some investigation that happens or you Know, maybe a call that needs to happen afterwards for relationship building and trust building, et cetera. But ultimately it is a single task that usually arrives and then that task is completed. Sure, that could be tier one support. And yes, when we think of senior members, we can think of, you know, ways that we can involve them in, you know, training or onboarding, more junior members who are very new to the organization and look at individual things there. But right now, on my support team, what we've done is we've sort of separated and segmented our team into two. And that's based off of interests and skill sets as well.
So one team specifically is a bit more service oriented and the growth paths within those roles are very much knowledge management related. So the idea behind that is these are the members who are going to be our product experts. They're service focused, but they are our product experts. So I have one member of my team that does monthly training sessions. We use our top hat product because of course, you know, you should definitely use your product whenever it makes sense and it's possible. So we use it for quizzing and we have monthly quizzes every, every month. And it's highlights, you know, struggle areas where individual agents might have struggled with. So this is where it also hinges on making sure that we have somebody going through and doing like a quick QA and opening examples that of course, we ask the individual where that case derived from and say, like, hey, can we use this as an example to put in our training session? But we also bring up anything like, you know, standard highlights or updates, process changes, et cetera, so little things. And it's a quiz very short, no more than, you know, 15, 20 minutes of time once a month just to get a good refresh going.
So we have one member does that. He also manages our knowledge base and he also, you know, does an analysis of like, you know, what our case drivers are in partnership with one of our managers just to make sure that, you know, all our, if we could call it Tier 0 or Self Help resources are up to speed. But that also helps empower, you know, our knowledge bots that are being used externally for a customer.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: And then the other side of my team is a bit more, we call it the solutions team. They're a bit more focused on, well, providing solutions, but the work that they work on is a lot more involved. We have one member that handles any of the bug tickets that comes through and the relationship building is definitely with our engineering team to see how we can prioritize and map individual bugs. Appropriately, we have another member who is our solutions engineer. And her role is really interesting because within our platform we have learning management systems that we integrate with. So essentially she's our integrations expert. So she's a SME there.
But ultimately her role is kind of like if I break it down, it's more of a combination of documentation that's required specifically because she's a SME. She also handles a lot of customer facing calls, both with their sales team and with our customer success team.
And ultimately her role is incredibly important in driving a lot of our business forward because many of the renewal conversations we have actually starts with a member of our support team. And I think like coming up with that role, I mean a solutions engineer isn't like a brand new title or anything. And I know every company does it a little bit differently. That particular title made sense for the role I was envisioning, but it didn't exist. It only existed within the last year or so at Top Hat. And it was a brand new role that was really created to really support this individual member on my team. And the reason I wanted to make sure there was a growth path for her was because she was really interested in project management. But I didn't necessarily have projects for her to work on within the support team.
So we started discussing, we had long conversations of what her interests were, where she saw, where she gravitated towards and we saw it was a very natural progression where she took on the integrations part of our business and she started writing documentation and then it clicked, it started to click. It was like, okay, well if this is what you really like, like policies, procedures, talking with, speaking with customers, building relationships, I mean we can make a role for you. Let's do it. And so that's really how it, how it evolved and how it happened. But ultimately it's like having, you know, those deep, deep, meaningful one on ones with your direct reports and even if they're not your direct reports, it's getting creative about what does the support team need in order to drive the business forward.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's great. I love to hear how teams are evolving and developing and especially in this new way that we are doing things and thinking about how we up level teams to continue. Instead of just thinking about, well what is AI going to come in and take away, we start thinking about, well sure, maybe it's going to automate this level, but where's the next thing? Where's the higher level? Where's the great thing that somebody passionate about or fascinated by thinking about that as we kind of start to land the plane here, I'd love to think about how do we help teams just not think about AI as how do we automate tasks, how do we do something faster, but start to think about how to use those tools in a strategic way to grow our understanding, our influence, our ability to deliver a great experience to customers.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, definitely experiment. When I think about AI, I think of it in three buckets. There's the doing it faster, which is the automation piece, the very high level piece, the piece that everyone feels that is threatening their role.
Then we got the middle piece, which is doing it better. So really thinking about how we can use AI to improve the quality of the work that we're doing. And sometimes it could mean doing something faster, but it could mean that by doing one thing faster, it opens up something else that we can focus and make better.
And then lastly is doing it differently. So that's the third bucket.
That's the most difficult bucket to fall into. And I don't think there's enough of us doing that today. I will say that even here at Top Hat, we're still kind of hovering between the doing it better, doing it differently. We're not quite in the doing it differently bucket quite yet.
But ultimately, the way I see AI is if we only focus on doing things faster, we are completely writing ourselves out of the picture. And what's really, really important, if we think about humans and human first and really being partners with AI, we can't focus on really automating because ultimately, even if we don't write ourselves out of the picture, we are only focusing on one element of what makes support fantastic. Sure, it's great, it's wonderful when you get, you know, your answer as quickly as possible. But what about the quality of the conversation? What about that connection? It's not happening.
Like, again, like I said earlier, like efficiency wins moments, but it's really trust that wins that loyalty. And you can't build trust by design. Just doing something really, really quickly. So being responsive is completely different from doing something quickly. Being responsive also involves a layer of understanding what the customer is looking for, responding appropriately, but also following up and owning that conversation. Right. Doing what you say you'll do.
So anyway, in terms of doing it better, that's where I think a lot of us still need to focus on.
So automation, great, wonderful. And if you want to make space for that, you might need to automate some work in order to build up bandwidth for later. One thing that I've really Loved about thinking about experimentation and stuff.
Sorry, I'm not really using wonderful words this morning.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: You're just fine.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: My vocabulary is incredibly limited today.
Regardless, one thing in our customer success team that I think has been really powerful with the sense of experimentation is we had like an internal customer success hackathon. So that gave us an opportunity for non technical people to try out and experiment with AI. Now we didn't have any developers or anybody who had jumped in and they had like it was something we did on the side. We had like about two months to really work through it.
There were about five teams that formed, so not too many. But whoever participated took the opportunity to take their idea and try to use AI to see what they could do, if they could solve for it. And what's really, really important to think about, and especially when you talk to your teams and get them comfortable with the concept of AI, is that the individuals who are closest to your work are probably going to have the best solutions in place. So that's why you really need to involve your team and that's why context building is so important.
But anyway, that's besides the point. So our CS hackathon, the groups that presented individual projects, we've actually implemented some of them live. We have a knowledge bot that's in our slack right now that completely answers a lot of the very common questions that come through. And it's not just questions that would have funneled to the support team, it's really our product team for example, or anyone as well.
I would say it was very straightforward to put together, but again, a non technical implementation that even if there was something a little bit we could vibe code or talk to, you know, Perplexity or your chatgpt to figure it out. We also had one member build sort of like a notification app based off of analysis of some of the emails that came through into their pipeline. So that really helped the csm, you know, improve their day to day. So ultimately great ideas that came out of it, some work better than others. We had an opportunity to present it to the group, really demo and share it and then figure out which ones we wanted to bring forward. We actually have one other idea and it escapes me right now, but the product team is actually now helping out with that particular one. So ultimately experimentation is incredibly important. It's important to get everyone comfortable, but it also has to come from leadership as well. So from the top, the very, very top. Your executive team all the way down and then, and I think I've been very fortunate here at top Hat where everyone is embracing AI in the sense of experimentation. And we do have sessions where we talk about successes and we talk about failures and open office hours that we can again see if there's anyone that can help us with an idea.
I worked on an idea for CS Hackathon and it failed. It didn't work.
I had this wonderful idea around sentiment analysis and the one piece I couldn't get was the connection between two of my software items like Salesforce and Fullstory. I couldn't get them to connect appropriately. So I wasn't able to fulfill the task. But I did present at my hackathon what the idea was and what I was trying to achieve. And I thought it was really important for me to do that as a Leader and for ICs to individual contributors to really see that a leader tried this out and it didn't work. And that's okay.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: And that was a moment that we were able to celebrate because ultimately I think that's where it becomes incredibly challenging. You need to have that sense of vulnerability. You need to share failures that happen or otherwise. People get very.
They get very not so sure about what AI can provide. It's not always about these wonderful things that happen. It's also, you know, again, that element of experimentation.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that idea of making sure our teams see us work on something and it not go well and that be okay. And what do we do and how do we learn from that? I think that's such a critical thing to building psychological safety in our teams and the ability to grow and develop in the work you're doing. Well, as we wrap up our conversation, we'd love to just take a moment for any last thoughts you may have, something we didn't hit on that you'd love for our listeners to hear. I'd love to take a moment for that.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: Ooh, that's a good one, Jordan.
Ultimately, I think like the main takeaway here is it's important to really involve your entire team in the decision making process. In really embracing whether it's.
Whether it's AI, whether it's experimenting, whether it's even advocating for the voice of the customer. It's all about building that context, allowing individuals to really advocate for your process because if they understand it, they're going to.
Not always, but typically it's a lot easier to buy into something that you understand.
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it.
I wish I had better words to bring forward today.
My vocabulary has decided to really quash it on a Friday.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: But no worries. No worries. This has been a great conversation. I think it'll be incredibly helpful for our listeners as we think through how we lead well, how we engage with our teams and how we engage with technology in our organization. So I think it's been a great conversation now for our listeners who might want to hear more from you, get in touch with you, connect with you. What would be the best way for them to do that?
[00:34:10] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely on LinkedIn.
I'm active there. Would love to also learn from any new individual that I connect with. And I think that's important. Let's carry the conversation forward.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah, awesome. Well, I'll make sure to include links to that, to your LinkedIn there in the show notes below so our listeners can get to that easily. But Karen, thanks so much for joining us here at the Table. It's been a great conversation.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Yeah, likewise. Thank you, Jordan.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: You bet.
You've been listening to the Table Service podcast. You can find out more about today's guest in the show notes below.
The Table Service podcast is presented by Tabolo Consulting, hosted by Jordan Hooker, music by Epidemic Sound.
